Curse

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Since my arguments seem to confuse people, let's take the intellectual level down a notch or two.

Capitalism and communism are both rooted in the very human condition called 'envy'. In a capitalist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you are given the opportunity to gain the difference through your own work and become as rich. In a communist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you make it illegal to earn more than you happen to earn and everybody becomes equally poor. Now which of these two descriptions more closely resembles loot scaling?

If you put it that way, it's capitalism, then.

With loot scaling, if you want more cash, you have to pick your rare drops and sell them to other players, not the merchant. That is 'your own effort'.

Before Lootscaling, if you farmed for a long time, the anti-farm code will appear, thus halting your farming. And since more various drops appeared, you had much less drops to sell to other players, and a lot of merchant crap.

With loot scalling, rare drops are out of it, and it's rare drops what sell better to both traders and players.

CHannum · Mar 27, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Now which of these two descriptions more closely resembles loot scaling?

Capitalism, not a single doubt about it. If you think there's some artificial cap on how rich you can become, you're delusional. LS is nothing more than a regulation on the market to help keep it more fair for everyone.

Regulated markets have been an intrinsic part of keeping capitalist systems from becoming as corrupt and poisonous as communist ones for as long as we've practiced business in the world. That's all LS is: you can get as rich as you want, you just can't get there eight times faster by finding a "tax loophole" in the system, but you can get still there about twice as fast (this is ignoring, of course, the eight as times as many rares, tomes, dyes, etc. that you'll get at the same time making your actual take much better).

Gli · Mar 27, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Since my arguments seem to confuse people, let's take the intellectual level down a notch or two.

After making one nonsensical and inappropriate comparison after another, I don't think you can. Unless it's possible to go into the negative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Capitalism and communism are both rooted in the very human condition called 'envy'. In a capitalist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you are given the opportunity to gain the difference through your own work and become as rich. In a communist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you make it illegal to earn more than you happen to earn and everybody becomes equally poor. Now which of these two descriptions more closely resembles loot scaling?

You show us an apple and an orange, then ask which one more resembles an ostrich. Yes, the intellectual level has actually been dropped. Please accept my apologies for doubting you.

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

The topic started from the false statement that lootscaling was added to counter bots.

That was not 'the' reson, it was 'a' reason. Even if you remove bots, the rest of the reasons are still there.

mr_groovy · Mar 27, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The topic started from the false statement that lootscaling was added to counter bots.

That was not 'the' reson, it was 'a' reason. Even if you remove bots, the rest of the reasons are still there.

It was one of the main purposes, keeping farmers in check was only a side effect.

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 02:47 PM // 14:47

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile_News/20070420

If you read that, it was not a side effect, was one of the main reasons.

Quote:

[...]

A major theme of our most recent update is that the game should be friendlier and more rewarding for casual players, including casual solo farmers, and that the most advanced farmers should differentiate themselves from the crowd not through the amount of gold and common loot that they farm directly from monsters, but instead through the amount of gold that they can get from selling rare items to other players (directly or through traders).

That's a very important distinction. Advanced farmers are always going to earn more money than their more casual counterparts. There's nothing wrong with that. When farmers earn their money by finding valuable items and selling them to other players, they're making the game more enjoyable for everyone. They're facilitating trade, and the gold they acquire from doing so is gold that was already in the game. It's only when solo farming introduces a huge influx of new gold into the economy that it becomes a problem.

[...]

mr_groovy · Mar 27, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile_News/20070420

If you read that, it was not a side effect, was one of the main reasons.

Propagenda at it's finest

Quote:

A major theme of our most recent update is that the game should be friendlier and more rewarding for casual players, including casual solo farmers, and that the most advanced farmers should differentiate themselves from the crowd not through the amount of gold and common loot that they farm directly from monsters, but instead through the amount of gold that they can get from selling rare items to other players (directly or through traders).

That's a very important distinction. Advanced farmers are always going to earn more money than their more casual counterparts. There's nothing wrong with that. When farmers earn their money by finding valuable items and selling them to other players, they're making the game more enjoyable for everyone. They're facilitating trade, and the gold they acquire from doing so is gold that was already in the game. It's only when solo farming introduces a huge influx of new gold into the economy that it becomes a problem.

We never had a huge influx of gold into the game. Perhaps only from the gold websites.
With all the new gold sink titles, and LS there has been a huge money SINK in the game. Thus people having less to spend. This money they want to keep through trading, when it's diminishing?

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

What I mean is that what we need to get cash is not a lot of merchant fodder like it was before lootscaling.

We need the Xunlai Market, to sell stuff to others easily.

The very heart of the real market in an online game is selling to others.
Even in Diablo II there was a limiation on how much gold you could get from selling to NPCs, limitation that banished by selling to other players.

Common sense.

tmakinen · Mar 27, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

If you put it that way, it's capitalism, then.

Before Lootscaling, if you farmed for a long time, the anti-farm code will appear, thus halting your farming.

You're confusing progressive taxation (antifarming code, capitalist method of economy regulation) with hard cap on regular salary (loot scaling, communist method of economy regulation) and the associated (black market) barter economy.

Since others seem to be even less familiar with basic economical concepts I won't elaborate any further before the level of discussion actually drops below zero (hint, I'm a middle aged scientist and one of the leading experts in the world in my particular field of study, so if there's a disparity in the intellectual level of arguments, don't immediately assume that they are working in your favor

).

mr_groovy · Mar 27, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

What I mean is that what we need to get cash is not a lot of merchant fodder like it was before lootscaling.

We need the Xunlai Market, to sell stuff to others easily.

The very heart of the real market in an online game is selling to others.
Even in Diablo II there was a limiation on how much gold you could get from selling to NPCs, limitation that banished by selling to other players.

Common sense.

I totally agree with you.

1 year after introduction of LS, and what better means of trade are there? A limited char party search. >.>
If I find a descent req 9 any weapon skin, it's gonna sell for what? 5-1k? I'm not even talking about everything above req 9.
In the start of LS it worked as it supposed to. You get nice drops in HM, and you can sell those, thus creating money.
Nowadays? Apart from end chest drops from dugeons or ambraces what still sells? About nothing. Vending an item for a hour for 1-3k you could have made "playing the game normally".

CHannum · Mar 27, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

We need the Xunlai Market, to sell stuff to others easily.

As much as I think GW needs this, I am amused by my suspicions that it would not accomplish what most of the "NEED MORE MONEY NOW!" crowd wants.

Right now, player to player prices are controlled by a lot of factors, but a chief one is the hassle factor. There aren't that many people buying or selling any particular item or mod at any given time because of the inherent hassle in doing so, so the vast majority of potentially saleable items winds up merch'd or salvaged. If there was an easily accessed means of selling items to other players, just how much more of a drop in prices would we see? Most runes and materials are so common place due to easy (but indirect) player to player sales that if not for the basement value assigned to them by Anet they would have no value at all. The casual player would have a field day because he could find a perfect fortitude or vampiric mod on demand at a fair price, but the power traders would bust a vein at how much the prices on all but the rarest of rare shinies would "plummet" to in short order.

I can almost bet the proverbial farm that two months after the implementation of the Xunlai Marketplace that these forums would be as polluted with threads about how the XM killed the GW economy as it is already with bitching about LS and UB.

Cab Tastic · Mar 27, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile_News/20070420

If you read that, it was not a side effect, was one of the main reasons.

I think we have already established they didn't have a clue what they wer doing when they implemented loot scaling.

Phaern Majes · Mar 27, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I can almost bet the proverbial farm that two months after the implementation of the Xunlai Marketplace that these forums would be as polluted with threads about how the XM killed the GW economy as it is already with bitching about LS and UB.

The crowds always need something to QQ about...its all about the current flavor of the month. Soul reaping energy gain, 6 man HA, how bad party search is, how there is no auction house or similar, lootscaling, hackers/scammers/bug and glitch abusers, Ursan, etc. Not saying some of those aren't worthy of QQ'ing but there will always be something that people find to whine about.

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Loot scalling is not a hard cap.
Rare drops are out of loot scaling, never forget that.

And trading in GW is NOT the barter black market. Trading with other players is THE WAY to get cash. It is how it was meant to work. Traders are middlemen between players, but they are a system in which players take part.

The only equivalent of Black Market in GW is RMT: riches acquired in 'illegal' ways.

Sometimes really easy concepts are hard to understand due to predisposition to complicate things. You cannot find real equivalents because there are no equivalents.

What LS actually makes is removing the 'need' to farm. No one can farm the way it was possible before, so those that keep farming like before may be probably wasting time if they do not trade with other characters. Since LS works for all, not for some, no one is losing anything. You do not need a way to get more gold to pay for something, since the guy selling other stuff is under LS too.
Gold then has its value increased.

If you remove LS now, you'll get that those willing to farm will get much more money without farming than those that refuse to do so.

Since farming is and never was 'the way' meant to get the money, but an alternate optional thing to do, we end up having that LS will never be removed, no matter how much people agree or not with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

I think we have already established they didn't have a clue what they wer doing when they implemented loot scaling.

Yes, I completely and absolutely agree with you. You think. But you do not have server statistics Anet has. So it doesn't matter what you think, when they KNOW.

H R · Mar 27, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

or if anet wanted to fix the real money trading, why just sell gold from their online store. that way they make money and everyone is happy

cebalrai · Mar 27, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

We never had a huge influx of gold into the game. Perhaps only from the gold websites.

You're wrong. Anet is saying that there was a huge influx of gold from solo farmers/advanced farmers. You apparently didn't read their message or you just filtered it to prove your biased point.

So yes, there was a big influx of gold into the game. Bots aside, Anet made the change because solo farmers were making insane amounts of cash in very little time, with very little effort. That was bad for the game.

So stop saying it's all about the bots as if that's some sort of fact. It's only your speculation. Please qualify your statements by noting that they're your opinion. Otherwise you lose your cred.

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by H R

or if anet wanted to fix the real money trading, why just sell gold from their online store. that way they make money and everyone is happy

XD.

That would be exactly like allowing other RMT companies. It doens't matter who does it, if many gold is inserted into the game without any ingame effort at all.

cebalrai · Mar 27, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by H R

or if anet wanted to fix the real money trading, why just sell gold from their online store. that way they make money and everyone is happy

That type of system has ruined many, many games. People learn from the past.

There are about sixty problems with that route. Not going to detail them here though....

tmakinen · Mar 27, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Trading with other players is THE WAY to get cash. It is how it was meant to work. Traders are middlemen between players, but they are a system in which players take part.

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

Gli · Mar 27, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

You're confusing progressive taxation (antifarming code, capitalist method of economy regulation) with hard cap on regular salary (loot scaling, communist method of economy regulation) and the associated (black market) barter economy.

But loot scaling isn't the equivalent of a hard cap on regular salary. It's a negative modifier, but never a hard cap. Because, as you know, there are plenty of items exempt from lootscaling. Also, it's still a given that in Guild Wars, more time spent more efficiently will always net you more gold. Lootscaling is an artificial construct devised for game balance, something that's not present in real-life, something you shouldn't even be trying to compare to any country's socio-economical goings-on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Since others seem to be even less familiar with basic economical concepts I won't elaborate any further before the level of discussion actually drops below zero (hint, I'm a middle aged scientist and one of the leading experts in the world in my particular field of study, so if there's a disparity in the intellectual level of arguments, don't immediately assume that they are working in your favor

).

I guess then that, like with so many others, your online persona doesn't quite match your real-life one. Because your 'lootscaling is like communism' dissertations are complete hogwash.